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	<title>Comments on: How to improve the quality of programmers</title>
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	<link>http://www.iovene.com/57</link>
	<description>The thoughts of a computer programmer, open source supporter and free-thinker.</description>
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		<title>By: Me : Code Monkey &#124; pakdhe.febri.web.id</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-102447</link>
		<dc:creator>Me : Code Monkey &#124; pakdhe.febri.web.id</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-102447</guid>
		<description>[...] *) taken from : http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[…] *) taken from : <a href="http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/" rel="nofollow">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/</a> […]</p>
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		<title>By: Salvatore Iovene</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>Salvatore Iovene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-193</guid>
		<description>@ Tilo // comment #9

Hi Tilo. University shouldn&#039;t necessarily harder: it just would need not to let right about anyone advance so easily. See comment #5.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Tilo // comment #9</p>
<p>Hi Tilo. University shouldn’t necessarily harder: it just would need not to let right about anyone advance so easily. See comment #5.</p>
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		<title>By: Tilo</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Tilo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 21:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-192</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree with you&#039;re idea about making university harder, sharing BlogReaders opinion. What I do think is that CS education could need a broadening of it, taking in more other subjects and thus showing that computer science is a serious subject and not something you finish by reading a book and typing some code.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t agree with you’re idea about making university harder, sharing BlogReaders opinion. What I do think is that CS education could need a broadening of it, taking in more other subjects and thus showing that computer science is a serious subject and not something you finish by reading a book and typing some code.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Fairley</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-189</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Fairley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-189</guid>
		<description>It is always a silly thing to give advice, but to give good advice is fatal.

Genius is born--not paid.

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is always a silly thing to give advice, but to give good advice is fatal.</p>
<p>Genius is born–not paid.</p>
<p>Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.</p>
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		<title>By: Salvatore Iovene</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator>Salvatore Iovene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-187</guid>
		<description>@ george leroy tirebiter // comment #5
George (or whatever your real name is! :) ), I find your experience very interesting. Should you read this, I invite to write about it more extensively and I could publish it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ george leroy tirebiter // comment #5<br />
George (or whatever your real name is! <img src='http://www.iovene.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  ), I find your experience very interesting. Should you read this, I invite to write about it more extensively and I could publish it.</p>
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		<title>By: Salvatore Iovene</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-186</link>
		<dc:creator>Salvatore Iovene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-186</guid>
		<description>@ BlogReader // comment 4

Thanks. I also have to agree with you: this isn&#039;t going to happen. It&#039;s kind of sad, but given the current situation, I can hardly see any improvement chances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ BlogReader // comment 4</p>
<p>Thanks. I also have to agree with you: this isn’t going to happen. It’s kind of sad, but given the current situation, I can hardly see any improvement chances.</p>
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		<title>By: george leroy tirebiter</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-184</link>
		<dc:creator>george leroy tirebiter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 04:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-184</guid>
		<description>I teach CS at a university where the students are (for the most part) pretty poor.   (Hence anonymous posting.) We&#039;re stuck though, as we&#039;re a state funded institution and retention (keeping students at the place) is king.  As is student evaluations - being tough on students is a good way to lose your job.  

I was seriously downrated on student evaluations for actually trying to teach something that I thought was fairly basic in a course that the students said was &quot;introductory&quot; and therefore was necessarily easy.  Even so, I felt required to pass most of the students (a 2.0 average here is really a 1.0 or less in ability and given the trends I&#039;m seeing a 3.0 will soon be a 1.0).  

We don&#039;t even have weed out courses (as mentioned above).  Such things would be tossed out by the university as evil.  This bugs me as I&#039;ve worked in industry and most of our graduates are not worth hiring - but there&#039;s no way they can know that and no way I can communicate that to anyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I teach CS at a university where the students are (for the most part) pretty poor.   (Hence anonymous posting.) We’re stuck though, as we’re a state funded institution and retention (keeping students at the place) is king.  As is student evaluations — being tough on students is a good way to lose your job.  </p>
<p>I was seriously downrated on student evaluations for actually trying to teach something that I thought was fairly basic in a course that the students said was “introductory” and therefore was necessarily easy.  Even so, I felt required to pass most of the students (a 2.0 average here is really a 1.0 or less in ability and given the trends I’m seeing a 3.0 will soon be a 1.0).  </p>
<p>We don’t even have weed out courses (as mentioned above).  Such things would be tossed out by the university as evil.  This bugs me as I’ve worked in industry and most of our graduates are not worth hiring — but there’s no way they can know that and no way I can communicate that to anyone.</p>
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		<title>By: BlogReader</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-183</link>
		<dc:creator>BlogReader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 00:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-183</guid>
		<description>Liked your article much more than the &quot;lousy&quot; one as it put forth some ideas on how to improve things.

However I can&#039;t really see this happening as we&#039;re suffering from a Loke Wobegon effect where everyone thinks they (or their kids) are above average.  Trying to reverse that is going to be really tough.  Also there&#039;s a little too much social Darwinism in that for me -- for example the weed out classes at my school were almost guessing games in the correct answer as the problems were really complex.  But that&#039;s a fault of the university.

And I agree with your post about this driving down wages, and I mainly blame business people or those that get into project management with a few years of experience.  They don&#039;t know the full price of a bad programmer and think they are all just cogs.  If they are all cogs why not get the cheapest one?

The reason this can go on is that people move around in jobs so there&#039;s no such thing as an institutional learning where someone can say &quot;whoa we tried offshoring this complex project to India / China / Russia and it came in 5x over budget and 3 years late&quot;  It is like all projects of this sort start anew with people thinking its going to be all roses and are shocked, shocked to find out that they don&#039;t get amazing results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liked your article much more than the “lousy” one as it put forth some ideas on how to improve things.</p>
<p>However I can’t really see this happening as we’re suffering from a Loke Wobegon effect where everyone thinks they (or their kids) are above average.  Trying to reverse that is going to be really tough.  Also there’s a little too much social Darwinism in that for me — for example the weed out classes at my school were almost guessing games in the correct answer as the problems were really complex.  But that’s a fault of the university.</p>
<p>And I agree with your post about this driving down wages, and I mainly blame business people or those that get into project management with a few years of experience.  They don’t know the full price of a bad programmer and think they are all just cogs.  If they are all cogs why not get the cheapest one?</p>
<p>The reason this can go on is that people move around in jobs so there’s no such thing as an institutional learning where someone can say “whoa we tried offshoring this complex project to India / China / Russia and it came in 5x over budget and 3 years late”  It is like all projects of this sort start anew with people thinking its going to be all roses and are shocked, shocked to find out that they don’t get amazing results.</p>
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		<title>By: Just me</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-180</link>
		<dc:creator>Just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-180</guid>
		<description>Nice article.  Dunno if you already changed the font, but I certainly find it readable enough (if not, people can always ctrl-+ to increase font size, can&#039;t they?).

I mostly agree, except for the developing brain wiring thing.  Admitted, I was already interested in programming when I was 10 or so, but I got my first computer with 19 (parents...) and the very basic BASIC when I was a kid wasn&#039;t ANYTHING like the stuff I&#039;ve been doing the last eight years now (turned 27).

What it takes is lots of hard work (there&#039;s a good article &quot;teach yourself programming in ten years&quot; or sth. like that) and the motivation to learn all the concepts there are in programming (functions, higher-order functions, data types, objects, polymorphism, subtyping, inheritance, modules...).

I started with reading ESR&#039;s how to become a hacker, learned Lisp (first Scheme), C, Java and some assembler, SML and peeked at some other languages.  It takes time.

The best we can do is educate people about the complexity, and to tell them that software quality IS manageable, i.e. you need to get a team of good developers, but then you can do it.  And we also need more software companies (or consulting shops) run by developers.  And fewer architecture astronauts; they steal our bread, lower our wages, and talk crap most of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.  Dunno if you already changed the font, but I certainly find it readable enough (if not, people can always ctrl-+ to increase font size, can’t they?).</p>
<p>I mostly agree, except for the developing brain wiring thing.  Admitted, I was already interested in programming when I was 10 or so, but I got my first computer with 19 (parents…) and the very basic BASIC when I was a kid wasn’t ANYTHING like the stuff I’ve been doing the last eight years now (turned 27).</p>
<p>What it takes is lots of hard work (there’s a good article “teach yourself programming in ten years” or sth. like that) and the motivation to learn all the concepts there are in programming (functions, higher-order functions, data types, objects, polymorphism, subtyping, inheritance, modules…).</p>
<p>I started with reading ESR’s how to become a hacker, learned Lisp (first Scheme), C, Java and some assembler, SML and peeked at some other languages.  It takes time.</p>
<p>The best we can do is educate people about the complexity, and to tell them that software quality IS manageable, i.e. you need to get a team of good developers, but then you can do it.  And we also need more software companies (or consulting shops) run by developers.  And fewer architecture astronauts; they steal our bread, lower our wages, and talk crap most of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Salvatore Iovene</title>
		<link>http://www.iovene.com/57#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Salvatore Iovene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.iovene.com/how-to-improve-the-quality-of-programmers/#comment-178</guid>
		<description>@ Ludo // comment #2

Thanks for the typo report and for reading :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Ludo // comment #2</p>
<p>Thanks for the typo report and for reading <img src='http://www.iovene.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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